The day is here for our Rules of Civility discussion! What did you think of the novel? I waited until four days ago to start the book, and while I finished it with time to spare (yesterday, just after lunch) I won’t do that again. I felt rushed and didn’t take the time to enjoy the dialogue, which was really quite good. I’m going to start reading next month’s book straight away.
I do not want to taint the conversation with my opinions before it even gets started, so let’s meet in the comment section and get this Rules of Civility discussion going. I am curious to see if you gave it the same rating I did.
Update No. 1
The discussion was more than I dreamed possible. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts on what made this book special.
Update No. 2
We discussed this book years ago as a new release. Much has happened since then! If I am perfectly honest, I do not remember much of the book! There is a lot of activity online about Rules of Civility and there is more talk about seeing this book on screen. I may pick it up and do a reread. A studio optioned the rights to the movie and chose two popular writers known for successful adaptations to handle the script.
The movie was in development at Lionsgate for some time, but it looked like it would never make it to the big screen. Then, long-form TV shows on cable gained acceptance (made studios a lot of money) and the project shifted over to cable. Amor Towles, the author, is happy about this development, and so should be the fans. There is an opportunity to keep more of the book when projects shift to cable. I am looking forward to watching the final product!
I’m a little nervous to be the one to start the comments (at least no one else has commented by the time I started writing this), but I’ll just put out there SOME of my thoughts and join in with others later. I loved the characters, all of them, and yeah the dialogue was really one of the highlights of this book. Towles hits this time period straight on and you feel like you could be reading something around the corner from Gatsby. I think the part I loved best of the whole thing was Katey’s relationship with Wallace. It felt so mature, and so exactly what each of them needed. It’s too bad you knew exactly what would happen to him the minute he left, though I suspect he knew it too, which changes the whole thing entirely. I think Eve was one of the more surprising characters and I was a little sad that she just disappeared out of the book. It’s quite a statement to say she preferred life on the other side of the windshield.
Pretty much, I’d have to say I loved everything until the end…when I saw the story (in terms of plot, not themes) was about a couple who SHOULDN’T end up together DON’T end up together. The romantic in me was not satisfied, though I don’t know what would have been a better ending, since by that point I didn’t want them to get together anyway. OF COURSE the book is about MUCH MORE than that (and what it IS about is awesome). But the part of me that always falls head over heels for love felt a little cheated. :)
My favorite relationship of the book was between Katey and Wallace. That brief, platonic relationship proved pivotal, and is where Katey learned to love without artifice. Up until this point, she has an ulterior or blatant motive behind every relationship. Eve provides entertainment. The girls at Mrs. Martingale’s provide clothing. Alley (at first) provides job security. Any opportunities at a relationship that don’t provide immediate gain are dismissed, like the poor Charlotte Sykes. And, although she ultimately saves Charlotte by chasing after her with the merger agreement, it’s only because she buckles under the watchful stare of a fellow train passenger. It’s still not her fully formed moral and ethical compass that guides her–it’s the opinion of those around her, even when it’s an anonymous chambermaid, that compel her to act.
Like you, my regret is that you knew what was going to happen the second the two met. Wallace isn’t a character that can survive character development. He’s like the animals in nature who must die so that their offspring can live.
I’m a romantic, too, so I was sad knowing from the beginning Tinker and Katey wouldn’t work, but in a way it did. Sometimes the greatest love of all lies not in the reality, but in the memory.
Also, it goes without saying that Tinker and Katey no longer have anything to offer each other, aside from their memories. When they met, Tinker gave Katey the lifestyle she thought she wanted. Katey gave Tinker a glimpse at serenity. In the end, Tinker was ready to find serenity on his own, and Katey was not willing to pay the price for Tinker’s way of life.
I loved when Katey stuck the key down Ann’s pants in the end. The proposition was for an apartment, but Katey knew the offer for what it was. She would have been a sexual toy, just like Tinker and no amount of Stuart Davis was worth it.
I read that also as a rejection of Anne’s assertion that she and Katey were somehow the same. I think that’s the point where Katey really decides what kind of person she wants to be, and how she wants to reach her goals/dreams. Of course, then Anne does her the good turn of recommending her for the assistant position that shapes the rest of her life. I think that’s part of what I liked about the book – nothing was ever as simple as it seemed. Things – and people – were complex, layered. Just like real life.
Good point. This is why I love discussing books. There are so many ways to interpret the same page!
I agree! I saw that action as a rejection of Anne’s way of life, as well. And perhaps it was the final nail on Tinker’s coffin. If Anne hadn’t stopped by, Katey’s anger might have mellowed at that point and she could have chosen to overlook the whole thing. Not completely but enough to justify becoming more a part of his world.
It was a fast read for me too. I had a spare weekend between kids illness and it took me away!
I love your line Jade “It�s quite a statement to say she preferred life on the other side of the windshield.” Eve was a good character-not quite a butterfly, but only able to live on her terms. It’s America after all and she can do that.
The great highlight other than the dialogue was New York itself. The descriptions of the homes, interiors, hunting lodges (the parties!) and office blocks kept me happy.
Really though, Wallace was the only mature one in the bunch. (forgive me for forgetting names-the book went back to the library) Wallace had a man of privileges’ problems. I think he needed to feel something and threw himself into an event that was an approved charity case for him. Katy, although wistful and ethical, was a bit more vapid to me. She worked, she played, she hung out with the rich folks. She really didn’t deserve Wallace.
Now seeing her lost love in the photograph-she saw he got the life he wanted and I think anymore reflection would be too much for her. She was an immigrants daughter and married up, She didn’t have the luxury of living her dream.
I always think about if I would be friends with the characters. Anyone else do that? I’m not sure I could be real good friends with Katy, she might toss me aside like the girls in the typing pool. Eve would have been a hell of a hoot. She was a bit more real to me and honest with herself even though he really let no one in. The artist brother would probably have my heart : )
It killed me his paintings were left alone in the squalid building in the end!
I know it’s more than things, but those paintings were the substance that the others craved.
Thanks for the discussion Jules, I can’t wait to hear what others have to say.
“I had a spare weekend between kids illness…”
Sing it, sister.
I had problems with Katey, too, but less so knowing she was the daughter of immigrants. Being one myself, I understand that need to blend in and be like everyone else, especially because you ]aren’t, and never will be.
Katey knows that much of what she wants is complete and total b/s, but she wants to fit in and see how the other side lives. Despite her best efforts, her conscious gets stronger with each interaction, and it gets harder and harder to lie to herself. She buys herself a new outfit, but the shoes don’t fit her well. She spends the last of her savings on a luxurious meal (a scene right out of Walden), but she vomits it up in a back alley.
I loved this book – it has become one of moy all-time favorites. The heroine’s up by her bootstraps approach to living her life, the growth that her character experiences throughout the book (from hitching her star to men to realizing she doesn’t need to do that – with the help of some strong guidance of course), the characterization of the city itself – and the characterization of the time period itself. Reading the book was quite an immersive experience, and that happens all to rarely these days.
I’m so glad you enjoyed it so much! In talking about it in the comments, I am disappointed I took so long to read it. Had I not been as rushed, I may have enjoyed it more and caught more nuances. I really liked it, but didn’t loooooove it.
I read the book at the beginning of the month and have already forgotten way too much (which totally has to do with me and not at all with the book). I wanted to comment more on the writing than the story. Honestly when I read the first few pages it worried me that the writing was so beautiful and full of words (does that even make any sense to anyone else?). Sometimes writers who write so beautifully and richly are hard for me to read because the writing gets in the way of the story. But definitely not in this case. The language is gorgeous but doesn’t interfere at all with the story-telling. Very impressive in my opinion (and a first novel, right?). I do hope he writes more!
Yes, I know what you are talking about because that has happened to me. I feel Towles did a great job being lyrical without being sappy. He proved he can write and didn’t beat us over the head to do it.
It’s so nice to be able to finally discuss – I read this last summer and skimmed it for this month’s book club. One of my main issues with books I read is their predictability – I can see where something is headed way too early to enjoy or get too lost in the story. That didn’t happen here – there was a sense that something was going to happen but that was not the secret I was expecting. And I see why Jade wanted a different ending – but I was relieved at how appropriate the end was – the author didn’t try to force a “happy” ending and the tone was spot on. As I get older, I become more sentimental (not in a yearning kind of way, but in reflection) of all the experiences I had (and didn’t) in my 20s. I don’t want to go back, but it is helpful to be able to examine it with some degree of wistfulness (Becky – I love that word, thanks!)
This story is as much about setting as characters and Jazz Age New York really came alive.
I don’t know if I agree with Becky about Katey – I think she was grounded in sincerity, even though she was a social climber I felt like she wasn’t completely lost (maybe it’s because she loved to read!). One of my favorite scenes is when she buys a new outfit and treats herself to a fancy lunch. Because it showed so much – her insecurities and her strengths. I certainly appreciated her naivete about Tucker – his status and striving mirroring her own to some degree – and the assumptions she made.
Anyone ever read GW’s Rules of Civility? We have a copy as I find them useful for the raising of savage boys :) Oddly I never thought of them as a guidebook to a lifestyle…if you are curious there are online copies to browse.
I am curious to see what others thought about Katey. Like or no?
I agree with your assessment of Katey. She felt very real and sincere to me and she did go through a lot of personal growth. I’m not sure I quite grasped what happened with her and Anne at the end there, in terms of where it fit in with the larger themes or what the author was trying to say by that. But the day she goes out and treats herself was, for me, one of the highlights of the book.
After thinking about it a little more, I think the reason I was perturbed by the end was not about whether they got together or not. I mean, it’s no surprise: the beginning already tells us it was a love lost. I think I was just annoyed because Tinker was set up to be the great love of her life, and she waits for him for so LONG, I think I was hoping he’d be more worthy, but for me, he just didn’t quite live up to the hype. He was honorable enough…but not very interesting. He seems very Gatsby-like in the beginning, but his veneer quickly fades for me. Truthfully, I found Wallace the far better catch.
But Tinker is such an age-appropriate object of lust, you know? Katey is infatuated with him, sensing something more than the suave veneer he presents, and he connects with her, too. Whoever wrote above that their striving mirrors each other is dead on. But that similarity isn’t enough, especially because they took different paths to “success”. In a way, Tinker has to leave in order to follow Katey’s example (of pursuing a passion with diligence and hard work). In the end he can’t be satisfied with living the lush life as a kept man. I actually respect that – and I think Katey does, too.
I agree. I mentioned it above, but in the end, what they wanted from each other was no longer there, no longer desired, or no longer possible. What was left, I think, was a deep gratitude and fondness for what each gave to the other. Both are keenly aware of the impact they had on the other’s life.
Which, for me, was more satisfying than a more traditional romantic ending for the two of them. It felt more real, and realistic.
The complete rules of civility were included in the appendix of my copy of the book!
“… where the gin was cheap enough that we could each have one martini an hour.” …
“But a little after nine-thirty, we drank eleven o’clock’s gin. And at ten, we drank the eggs and toast.”
The whole book is like this. The pacing is like a poem. The author had me with his first allusion to ” The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock on page five: ” It was time enough for whole lives to have been led and misled. It was time enough, as the poet said, to murder and create – or at least, to have warranted the dropping of a question on one’s plate.”
I was surprised that Eve actually left. I enjoyed the Wallace diverson and honeymoon bridge. I loved when Val was introduced and you needed to remember the beginning to understand his importance.
Maybe Tinker and Katey would have gotten together if Tinker had been more open with her about his life. But maybe Katey wanted to be on the rise, not on the descent.
I felt like I was watching a movie from those times the whole time I was reading the book. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it!
That description of the club was perfection. One of my favorites.
I was reading so fast I completely missed that she married the boy in the white jacket who drove her (with the radio on to avoid speaking) to NYC. I’m bummed that I read so fast, and that I had to track back to see that.
I love, love, love that, once again, Wallace imparts upon Katey one final gift–this time her future husband. I loved Wallace. My favorite character, hands down.
I missed that too. But I didn’t feel like it was something we were supposed to catch. He wasn’t referred to as Val during the car ride scene. I think it was supposed to be an ironic surprise.
No, and they used his full name, Valentine, at the party. You would have to be observant to catch it, which I wasn’t.
Yes! I thought that some of the language was so romantic and poignant.
Some of my other favorites:
�It is a lovely oddity of human nature that a person is more inclined to interrupt two people in conversation than one person alone with a book.�
�Anyone who has ridden the subway twice a day to earn their bread knows how it goes: When you board, you exhibit the same persona you use with your colleagues and acquaintances. You’ve carried it through the turnstile and past the sliding doors, so that your fellow passengers can tell who you are – cocky or cautious, amorous or indifferent, loaded or on the dole. But you find yourself a seat and the train gets under way; it comes to one station and then another; people get off and others get on. And under the influence of the cradlelike rocking of the train, your carefully crafted persona begins to slip away. The super-ego dissolves as your mind begins to wander aimlessly over your cares and your dreams; or better yet, it drifts into ambient hypnosis, where even cares and dreams recede and the peaceful silence of the cosmos pervades.�
Loved that early descriptive passage of the subway riders/photo subjects as well — I knew right then I was going to enjoy reading just because of the author’s lyrical style.
I too loced the author’s writing. This passage hit home with me.
If you have ever had to ride mass transit- this discription was spot on.
The longer the subway ride, less persona.
I adored the way that Val was introduced and how they didn’t talk during that car ride. And yet, he remembered her and the song they listened to when they met almost a decade later. It would have been interesting to learn more about their relationship. It seemed that, given the money Wallace left her, Katey would not have ever needed to marry for the sake of marrying/status/privilege. My hope is that whatever regrets she had about Tinker, she married Val for love.
I spent the whole book wishing I had the same clever conversations Katey did, wishing I had insight enough to say the snappy comment in the moment rather than thinking of it 3 hours later.
I started the book at the beginning of the month and finished it yesterday, which made the passage of time seem more realistic. I had completely forgotten who Katey had married from the beginning, so the end was a complete surprise (I was reading on a Kindle so the temptation to flip back to the beginning was tempered by my annoyance with that stupid button I never get quite right).
I loved the book. It wasn’t the best ever, but I’ve been reading so much non-fiction that it felt really good to become engrossed in the fictional (but it didn’t feel fictional) lives of all of these people. I would love some recommendations of novels people like as much as this one.
“You’d better throttle back, Dickey. You’re steering straight for a bulkhead.”
One of my favorite lines of dialogue in the book.
For more books like this, I would try Goodreads or http://whatshouldireadnext.com/. On that site, you type in a book you like and it spits out similar recommendations!
Thanks for the link. I have not run acrossed it before…
I agree with you, Laura–I also wish I was as clever a conversationalist as the characters in the book. At the beginning I really liked the flow of the dialogue; however, by the end, I found it to be unrealistic to the point that it was distracting. It was too finely tuned.
This is a minor point, but one of the other scenes from the book I found annoying was the few seconds/minutes when Katey thought no doormen had shown up to be interviewed, only to find she had more potential interviewees than she ever imagined. I feel like we’ve seen variations of this scene many times in movies, and I thought it was too lazy and/or formulaic compared to the rest of the book. Again, it was a small scene, but I found it disappointing nonetheless.
YES. I really disliked that scene. It’s been done and redone.
I totally agree with that! And after being annoyed, I then wanted to know what happened when they interviewed them.
Yes, but did anybody else wonder why the doorman from the Beresford, who had been friendly to Katey, but was then let go, wasn’t in the line? I was thinking maybe he’d step forward and say “Hi Katey” and then tell some gossip about Katey’s friends.
Kathy, you hit it for me- “Maybe Tinker and Katey would have gotten together if Tinker had been more open with her about his life. But maybe Katey wanted to be on the rise, not on the descent.”
This is what rang hollow for me about Katy. Otherwise YES, the poetry of the words was song-like and transporting. Lovely observation.
Melanie, I’m going to read those Rules of Civility and try and tame my boys, lol.
I read about this book a while ago and for some reason resisted reading it. I don’t remember what turned me off in the reviews I read, but I had no intention of picking it up. And now I’m so glad this book group chose it (and it was available in Nook format from my library! Bonus!). I enjoyed the characters, the plot, the pacing, the dialogue…everything. I echo the sentiment that it’s not the best book ever, but it was pretty darn good, and I’ve recommended it and will read other books by this author.
I usually have a bias against female protagonists written by male authors, but I thought Towles did a fantastic job with Katey. Maybe not as great with the supporting women, but that’s ok. She was complicated, believable, and compelling. I liked how he revealed bits of her history, I thought that really helped to locate the story in time, because otherwise so much of it actually felt modern to me. (Not that Towles didn’t use period detail well, just that it’s a pretty timeless story – it could easily be retold in today’s world.)
I loved the revealing bits, too. So often we see a characters entire history laid out in the first paragraph like a damn genealogical chart.
I found the character of Katey very interesting, and very believable. I think she was complex, in a way that Eve wasn’t. Eve came from money, moved to New York determined to make it on her own, but had a support structure in her family if she ever needed it (which to her credit she proves at the end she didn’t). Katey came from immigrant workers, spent her whole life in New York, and worked hard to polish her persona, move up in life, and to a new rung on the social ladder. I loved the part where she ran into a boy from the old neighborhood �That�s the problem with being born in New York,� the paper seller remarks, after the scrounger saunters off. �You�ve got no New York to run away to.” It’s so true–everyone else has somewhere to run off from, or to, but Katey only has New York, and all the history that comes with it for her.
I loved that line.
Sorry, his name is Tinker I must have been thinking of my cousin’s dog Tucker, lol.
Laura – I had to laugh in agreement with the witty comeback – I’m so good at them in the privacy of my home :)
I’m finding it interesting that Wallace seems to be such a favorite – my impression of him was that while he was honorable and I liked him, I couldn’t really root for him. He seemed a bit bland and too dependable – like the anti Tinker. I suppose that was the point, but I also think his purpose was, as Jules said, to be a relational turning point for Katey.
I too, kept waiting for Eve to return. I wrongly suspected she may throw a wrench into the story later on.
I will be back later with more, but I have to disagree with the assessment of Katey as a social climber.
I think Eve was far more of a social climber than Katey ever was. Katey had her job, and she had her friends, and she knew where she started. She ended up in a much better position because she just didn’t say “No”- she was as charming as she could be to everyone she met, and looked for new opportunities, and worked hard, and things worked out for her, but she never forgot where she came from. To me, that’s not a social climber.
Eve, on the other hand, was after Tinker from the get-go. When the three of them snuck into the movie, she was annoyed that Katey ended up sitting next to him, instead of her. She didn’t WANT to end up in the car wreck, but she certainly didn’t refuse the living arrangement at the Belvedere {I understand she didn’t want to depend on her father anymore….but is depending on your boyfriend-ish-person any better?}, she didn’t refuse the shopping trips, she helped herself to the diamond earrings she found in the nightstand (which must have been Anne’s, originally). She bragged to Katey about the lifestyle she was living- I mean, she had dinner in a ballroom for her birthday! She got herself invited on a trip to Europe, and ended up with a proposal and a giant engagement ring, which she then pawned in order to get money to go to Hollywood…where she ended up as a “confidante” of a movie star.
I assume that Eve probably became aware of the Tinker-Anne situation- even if she didn’t know the specifics, I’m sure she knew something was up. But it seemed like Eve used everyone around her to get what she wanted, and then discarded them as soon as she decided she wanted something else. In the end, she even discarded Katey, after getting hauled out of Jail and sleeping it off in her apartment!
I agree!
It’s interesting, because in publisher descriptions of the book they call it a story of a social climber. I really resisted the book for this reason. I could care less about social climbers or their stories because I have nothing in common with them and am opposed to their very lifestyle! But, really the climber was Eve–and I’m not so sure she was a climber, either because when presented with the opportunity to wed Tinker, she fled. I’m not sure how I would characterize Eve or Katey, but “social climber” isn’t it.
But now we know (and assume Eve figured it out) marrying Tinker wasn’t really socially climbing, because Tinker’s money was Anne’s. So her refusal of the proposal makes sense. Anne was a character I really enjoyed, btw. A strong woman of means, in a time when you don’t really envision women being in charge.
I loved the book, the language, the unfolding developments of all the characters. Especially Katey — I liked that she was pragmatic, and found a way to create her own destiny. And I did not catch that Katey’s husband was the guy who couldn’t wait to get out of the party until much later. I found myself wanting to see the photo exhibit desperately!
This book club stuff is fun!
Oh, now that’s an interesting take! Eve figured it out and went running. Interesting. She later winds up the “confidante” of a Hollywood starlet (translation: lover) which seems fitting. She’ll never settle because she is always after the illusive more.
Maybe Eve is the original woman, always hungry for the fruit of the forbidden tree.
I didn’t think Eve’s rejection of Tinker’s proposal was about the money. I think she just craved more excitement and independence than his lifestyle was liable to provide. The independence, especially – that seemed really crucial to her character, first with her father and then with Tinker. I think that originally she saw money as her pathway to independence, and then after living the moneyed lifestyle she realized that wasn’t necessarily true.
And I’m not so sure she knew the money wasn’t his. I thought she knew there was/had been another woman (where the earrings came from), but not that he was a “kept man”. I actually think she might have felt differently about Tinker if she knew his whole story.
BTW, you can google Walker Evans subway photos and see lots of the images.
I happened to see an exhibit of Walker Evans photos, including the subway series, the morning before I started reading the book. It’s a temporary exhibit at Stanford University’s Cantor Center in Palo Alto, California, so if you are in the San Francisco Bay Area, you can see the actual photos. (There’s no entry fee for the museum.) It was interesting (and surprising) to start reading about a Walker Evans exhibition hours after seeing one.
I really enjoyed the book and the discussion here. Thanks Jules!
Yes! And now that you say that, that’s exactly why I rejected the book when it first came out. I wasn’t interested in social climbing. But it turns out that’s not how I read the characters at all.
I guess in some ways the three mains – Katey, Eve, Tinker – are all social climbers, but that has such a shallow connotation for me. It’s not a full enough description of what these characters do to pursue their dreams, nor does it do justice to how those dreams change.
I think Eve would have been repulsed if she knew about Tinker’s relationship with Anne. Her whole mission was to never get caught under anyone’s thumb, and if Tinker was anything, it was that.
I had a hard time thinking of Katey as a social climber. She was interested, she was aware, but she did not strike me as manipulative or a user. Eve definitely had some of those tendencies but if she was a true climber, she would have married Tinker instead of heading off to Hollywood.
Ah, Walker Evans! I knew it was a real exhibit, but couldn’t remember the name. Thanks!
Need to google that; I really became infatuated with the images at the start of each chapter. I assume they are from the Walker Evans series?
That’s what I assumed.
I agree. I did see Katey as a social climber. If she was, she wouldn’t have passed up the opportunity for the free(ish) apartment.
I found Eve to be annoying and one-deminsional.
Overall, I liked the book and was glad it was picked. I really liked the characters, esp. Katey, and got very immersed after the accident — it was a little slow beforehand. I engaged with the characters, and thought Anne Grandyn was a total scene-stealer. However, when I step back and access the major plot points of the book, the thing is SO unrealistic, that I can’t take it very seriously. It’s like a classier version of one of those Danielle Steel books about the rich and shopping-obsessed. Somehow, I’m to believe that 2 girls from the secretarial pool, albeit sassy and lovely, manage to rise in the ranks of NYC society so quickly? (Yes, Eve was from the upper middle class, but not RICH.) And Tinker’s list (The Rules) was of course a direct steal from the Great Gatsby, which WE know, and the AUTHOR knows, so I guess it’s an “in joke,” but really….
My main issue were all the heavy-handed metaphors and similes that often felt like clunky one-liners. Sometimes I would actually read them over twice and marvel at how awful they were. Of course, I didn’t bother to mark or underline them at the time, so I don’t have any examples at the moment. I’ll have to go back & find some.
I sort of wish Kate had married an average Joe, or at least someone not as upper-crust. The fact that she actually did get to marry into a very wealthy family in the end was disappointing (and unnecessary, really). It was a fun, fast read, but not sure I’d recommend it.
I completely agree about the use of metaphors and similes, and I *think* the ones you are thinking of came at the beginning. The bar scene, in particular, was full of people with skin like coffee, snow like diamonds, blushes like stains, etc, etc, etc. Either I stopped paying attention or they slowed down towards the end of the book. By that point, I didn’t notice them or they weren’t there (as much).
I had the opposite response to the book. At first, I didn’t really care for it and thought it was okay. I’m like this when it comes to commercial fiction, though. I thought The Help and Like Water for Elephants were also just okay and I strongly disliked Eat, Pray, Love. But, now that I’m here talking with everyone and going over the fine points, I like it more. I’m having a great time hearing everyone’s perspective!
I still wouldn’t give it more than 3 stars on Goodreads, but I would recommend it to people I know because I know a lot of people who would like it. I’ve come to realize that the books I looooove will be either highbrow or trashy. Highbrow because true literature is breathtaking to read. Trashy because, for some reason that makes no sense, it’s easier for me to accept insane plots and impossibilities. It’s so preposterous that I don’t for a minute believe anyone or anything should be taken seriously.
Ugh! I’m going to say it here for all the world to read – I think Eat, Pray, Love, and the next book the name of which escapes me, are unbelievably self-indulgent. I do hope I’m not the only one who feels that way. Some interesting material – and in the second one I really enjoyed the history of marriage information. (I had a professor for Family Law who loved to talk about that stuff and I booked the course – yes, law nerd. lol) Loved The Help but I’m southern and grew up about a half-generation later with some vestiges of that life, although my parents were civil rights activists and paid our housekeeper a living wage and social security – in the early 60s.)
I wasn’t crazy about the book. Although I must admit I started reading it a second time around in a rare lull between reading material and liked it better then. To me it just seemed like it would build to a crescendo and then sort of plateau. After the wreck I thought, finally something good is about to happen … and then it just carried on. Maybe it’s just because I usually read more angst-driven material?
I did like the characters, and enjoyed the relationship between Wallace and Katey but, like a few others, was disappointed when Eve pretty much disappeared from the story line.
Altogether the book was pretty good, but not one I would recommend to a friend or one I would pick up again. That being said, I’m glad I did read it though. For me it was a step out of my comfort zone. Something I tend to avoid at all costs LOL.
In all the years I have known you, Kendra, you’ve never once been bowled over by a character driven book. You are more about the plot and pacing, which is probably why you are such a fan of YA/urban fantasy, etc. You’re always my go-to person when I want a book that will transport me somewhere else.
My life is character driven LOL. I guess I want something that is more of an escape from the every day.
Honestly if people could live one day in my head they would feel like they just stepped out of an episode of Ally McBeal.
I liked Rules. It was aquick, easy read with terrific dialogue and some good surprises. The �things aren’t always as they appear� theme kept me guessing. We all knew something was going to happen, especially to Tinker, but I didn�t see any of it coming (except for Wallace�s demise). I kept thinking that Hank, the starving artist, was the fraud as I assumed he had a trust fund — no way would I have guessed that Tinker would be the fake. Funny enough, I found Anne Grandyn to be one of my favorite characters. Don�t get me wrong, I�m glad she�s not my mother, but I like that she�s living her life on her own terms. Her conversation with Katey at the end of the book about needs and wants was spot on. Really, what more did she do than identify a want and pay for it?
I agree, Susan. Even after Katey busted Tinker and Ann, I still didn’t think Tinker was Ann’s kept man. I just figured he was sleeping around because he was a player. Tired of the game, but still a player. I thought it was Hank who was the fraud.
Ann was a scene stealer, definitely. I pictured here as Anne Bancroft’s Mrs. Robinson.
Overall, I enjoyed the book. I was surprised at how quickly I finished it, and now I feel like I almost read it too quickly to savor all the little nuances in the book.
I found myself rooting for Katey – from the early parts when she was competing against Eve for Tinker. I was sad about the elevator kiss and even sadder about the postcards from Eve/Tinker on vacation. I was angry about her running back to Tinker even before the Tinker/Anne connection was fully revealed. I guess I wanted Tinker to be punished for running off with Eve.
I was so hopeful for Katey + Wallace. I knew Wallace wasn’t going to stick around, but I kept hoping I was wrong. I feel like Wallace was the person who had the most impact on Katey’s life, even after he was gone.
I never liked Eve. She seemed nice enough, but didn’t seem to care about anyone else’s feelings. Maybe I have a mean streak, but I wanted Katey to not deal with Eve drunk and passed out on the street. But they did have a nice chummy connection pre-Tinker, and I suppose you can’t just ignore that. I agree that Eve is a people-discarder. I have some admiration for Eve’s ability to go after what she wants – from being financially independent to getting herself to California.
Tinker the Stinker – I liked how he tried to treat Katey and Eve equally even though he knew right away that he got along better with Katey. I like his guilt-fueled offer to have Eve stay with him. I didn’t like his guilt-fueled romantic relationship with Eve. I was glad that he found something that he liked in the end.
I am not sure how I feel about Anne being the villain and also Katey’s secret benefactress – cause of heartbreak, but source of start in awesome career! Key-in-pants was funny – I almost choked on my food when I got to that part. I think I like Anne. She was not afraid to go after what she wanted. She used her money & influence to help people she liked without really expecting anything in return.
The fact that everything happened in such a short time did seem a little unrealistic.
LOL I think you summed up exactly how I felt during the entire book! :)
This is such a great discussion; it’s making me think about the book in so many more ways. Thank you so much Jules for hosting this!
You’re welcome, Jade! I’m you enjoyed yourself. I had a lot of fun, too!
Karina–Tinker the Stinker made me laugh out loud!!
I read so fast half the time I wonder what ha-ha-happened!! Reading through the comments makes this so clear to me!! I enjoyed parts of the book, but don’t think I’d recommend it. I enjoyed getting to know Katey. I did feel like this was Great Gatsby-ish and even Mad Men-ish. And I know I’m old, but really, how can they party on and drink like that without wondering what is this life all about ?? I guess I came away thinking that although entertaining this wasn’t something I’d want to read again. I was disappointed with some of the characters. I guess, I thought, too about how this whole story is Katey’s hindsight. There are episodes in my college life that were ridiculous like these – fast paced, crazy, self-indulgent. I guess no one is exempt from that!
yes, this exactly. The book is really about Katey’s hindsight, and a nostalgic reminiscing about her life before Val, kicked off by the two images of Tinker.
I love everyone’s insights here. I also immediately felt it was like Great Gatsby and I didn’t know if it was merely the time period, or also the tone. I enjoyed the book but didn’t love it either, it seemed to drag for me in spots. I DID totally miss who her husband turned out to be!
I don’t think any of us schooled in the US can read anything in that time period without thinking of The Great Gatsby!
I really enjoyed this book and am happy to have read it, and I would recommend this book to friends. In fact, I right away wanted to recommend it to my closest friends from college, with whom I lived after college in my twenties in NYC. Even though this book was set in the 20’s (and we did not pal around with the super rich or at their parties), I could relate to so many pieces of it because it was set in Manhattan. I love how it painted the city; it really transported me, and it made me miss it in a way I hadn’t since visiting a year and a half ago. So the setting and the feel of the book were really enjoyable to me; Towles did a great job writing it.
I also enjoyed the story and the characters, although their likability varied for me. I am perhaps one of the few who wasn’t sad to see Eve disappear. I would not want to be friends with someone like her, and I was glad she was finally out of the picture, in a sense. Of course Wallace was the nicest, and I was rooting for him. I think Katey was completely relatable. There were several parts of the book when I really disliked her. I love how she really did make a life for herself coming up from nowhere, so it really bothered me when she was mean to the other girls (there was one especially, but I can’t remember her name) with whom she worked. At the end, though, I think it was one of the reasons why she WAS so relatable. Don’t we all have that bit of mean-ness in us somewhere?
I read this book quickly and didn’t want it to end. It was entertaining, and to me it was realistic in the sense that our happy endings aren’t always the kind of happy we expected them to be when we were younger. Or at least that the route to that happiness may not be what we hoped or expected, but we end up with a good life nevertheless.
Charlotte Sykes was the girl she was mean to, and those scenes killed me. Although, I’ll be honest, I’ve buried my head in a book to avoid talking to people.
I was also glad to see Eve go. I have nothing in common with a person like that, so I couldn’t relate to her at all!
Right? That’s just it. Those scenes with Charlotte (thank you!) killed me too, but then I had to catch myself, because I’m sure I’ve done something similar at some point in my life. Gah.
One more point–did anyone else think Eve’s situation with Tinker (before she left) was a lot like Tinker’s situation with Anne? Although Eve’s and Tinker’s relationship ostensibly was premised on mutual affection/love, it seemed from the beginning that all Eve wanted was the trappings of being with someone of Tinker’s status (or what Tinker’s status appeared to be). Eve forced herself to be with Tinker so she could have the lifestyle she wanted–just like Tinker engaged in the arrangement with Anne so he could have the lifestyle he wanted.
In some ways, the relationship was similar. I missed that. And in the end, it blew up in everyone’s face!
I read this whilst we were on holiday and absolutely devoured it. I’ve never read The Great Gatsby (altho maybe I should?) so I can’t really comment on the connection – but I utterly adored this. I think because it transported me to a time and place I’ve never been to, it was so real and and easy to see – which I always think is the sign of a great writer.
Anne was one of my favourites, as well as dear Wallace. His parting christmas gift to Katey had me a little teary eyed, I must admit. He felt like a gentleman, which was nice compared to Tinker’s character who strived to do the right thing through obligation. That being said, I was glad when he finally broke free from his strings and decided his own terms.
I was glad Katey ended up happy, it could so easily have become one of those mournful stories of unrequited love.
Honestly, I think this was a fantastic pick. I’m definitely going to read it again.
I’m so glad you liked it, Sarahmia! Yes, as someone from the UK, you probably aren’t clouded by The Great Gatsy like those of us who went to school in the states are. That book gets hammered into students in elementary school, high school, and probably college, too.
I also thought the Christmas gift to Katey was very touching. I sure did like that Wallace character.
I wanted to pop in and tell you how much I am enjoying the comments. I only wish that I could be a more active participant through my thoughts. In time…
Thanks, Jules! I hope you’ll continue each month.
I have to say, I was really nervous at first and when I was writing the post…I couldn’t think of anything remotely intelligent to say! Once the comments started coming, my memory kicked in and I felt more comfortable participating.
Take your time. :)
What did everyone think of the characters’ names? A bit heavyhanded, or was that supposed to be the point? I think I’m going with too heavyhanded, unless someone can convince me otherwise. The name Katey Kontent (oh! the irony!) especially drove me crazy, because it just sounds so made-up-to-make-a-point. I felt that way about the name Anne Grandyn as well. Perhaps I’m reading too much into it?
Overall, I enjoyed the book. I liked the author’s command of words…really beautiful writing. There were definitely some things that were imperfect (as someone mentioned, the scene with the doormen reminded me too much of The Help), but I would absolutely recommend it to my friends.
Looking forward to next month’s pick!
Yes, Katey’s last name drove me a bit crazy, especially because it was emphasized so much what with mispronunciation, introductions, etc. At the same time, names and nicknames play a big role in the book. What people call each other is rather telling.
I agree about Katey’s last name. I would say that nicknames were very much a part of that era as well.
I actually believed as I was reading that Katey had made up her name, as a part of her aspiring to a new identity. Kept waiting for the story of how she chose it to be revealed, and though it never was, I still wonder if that was the author’s intent. But yes, overall, the naming was a little over the top.
I laughed when I read it. Didn’t sound Russian to me! I googled it–maybe it is Russian?–but hell if I found anything. Kontent is the Russian spelling for “content.” I’m assuming it’s one of those English words without a foreign language counterpart that are then adopted into vernacular. There are a few words like that in Spanish, too, like email. That’s not a good example, but I can’t remember the word I’m thinking of right now!
Like many of you, I liked this book on a small scale, but will ultimately quickly forget it. I was really glad to be exposed to it, though. I tend to go back and forth between the classics and best-sellers and would never have stumbled upon this one on my own. (Nor March’s book to tell the truth, I must be living under a rock cuz I’d never even heard of it). The part I did enjoy about Rule was the historical exposure. I’m always interested in learning how people lived in different times. Any it’s not often we get to look through the eyes of a getting-older single woman in that time period.
I don’t feel I have anything new to add really. As another Brit, I perhaps missed a lot of the Great Gatsby similarities. I have read it, but years ago and not at school.
I thought it took a while to get going and as another commenter said, at first it was like the writing was going to get in the way of the story. My blurb actually mentioned wanting to re-read sentences because they’re so well written, and I was a bit concerned by that. Actually, I just want the story!
I did enjoy it, but didn’t feel bereft when I finished it the way I do when I’ve been completely immersed in a book. It’s something to do with the wisecracking and snappy dialogue. It’s of the period, but just feels a bit too self aware, I think. Somebody else mentioned always thinking of the right answer 3 hours later and there were too many perfect retorts. The book’s back at the library, but there was one along the lines of
‘I’ve seen you before’
‘From what distance?’
That just made me think ‘really?’. But maybe I just need to think faster!
I did like that I didn’t anticipate the ending, and another vote for Wallace as my favourite character. I’ve been reading non-fiction for so long, it was good to read something completely different. Thanks for picking it.
So fun to read through everyone’s thoughts on this book. I really really loved it but a lot of that for me has to do with this time period. NYC in the 1930s? It just screams a kind of visual that I don’t always get from other books set in other time periods. (and it’s one of my favorite eras) And while I say this about a lot of books, I would LOVE to cast a film version of this one.
I agree with the comments about the names being a bit over the top. “Katy Kontent” drove me nuts too, but I tried to de-emphasis that because I became such a fan of Amor Towles’ writing. Don’t you guys think that for a 40-50 year old man, he did a beautiful job writing from the female point of view? I always love to read up on authors and their backstories and his is a pretty incredible one to me. Principal at a Wall Street investment firm and this is his FIRST book? Wowzers. Imagine being that good with BOTH sides of your brain! haha
To second what Jules said, I so so loved Katey and Wallace. Don’t we all wish we had a Wallace in our lives? His death really upset me (not that we didn’t see it coming). One thing I loved about Eve (in addition to her being a fellow Hoosier ;) ) is that she never hid who she was. Whereas, I felt, with Katy, we saw a bit of ugliness in her character at times as she wrestled with doing the right thing and how to play people and scenarios. I felt like, in the scenes where she’s in the present (at the art museum and later at the end), there was a hint of regret, maybe? to some of her recollections?
I saved a lot of quotes/bits I loved from this book, here were a few:
“Most people have more needs than wants. That’s why they live the lives they do. But the world is run by those whose wants outstrip their needs.”
(pg. 239): (I just loved this scene)
�Quit worrying about the coat. It’ll find me. That’s why I leave my wallet in the pocket in the first place. Now what’s the fuss?
�It’s a long story.
�Leviticus long? Or Deuteronomy long?
�Old Testament long.
�Don’t say another word.
(from Dicky, a character I loved): “If only we fell in love with people who were perfect for us, he said, then there wouldn’t be so much fuss about love in the first place.”
Does anyone mind playing a cast the movie roles game? Some books lend themselves to it better than others and I think this is one of them. I’m too unhip to actually know the names of current actors, so please forgive me in advance…
Do you think the actress that was in the recent Marilyn Monroe movie would make a good Katey?
And I can totally see how Jules pictured Mrs. Robinson from the Graduate…I was picturing Annette Bening (sp?) as Anne Grandyn.
Oh and as for the witty comebacks, they irritate me more in when I read books set in the present day, because no one really talks that way now (at least no one I know). For some reason, I give historical conversation more latitude because they were better at the art of conversation – that and letter writing .
Oh, fun! I suck at knowing the new stars, too, but I’m game. :) I know for Tinker I was picturing Robert Redford. Helena pictured Carey Grant. Can you tell neither one of us keep up with celebrities?!
I think the girl who played Marilyn Monroe (Michelle Williams I think) would be good as Eve. And the Katey, some dark-haired actress. Maybe Anne Hathaway?
Tinker would have to be someone very attractive, with striking features. Maybe Cillian Murphy?
I think Wallace could be played by that guy who plays Harry Crane in Mad Men.
Alright, I have a confession. I didn’t finish it. Not to say that I won’t, but I haven’t yet.
I am shamefaced.
I’m about a third of the way in, and I have to say, it didn’t grab me right away. I have a hard time reading things that don’t immediately spark my interest, especially when I’m as harried and exhausted as I’ve been this month. (This is my first year as head of the science department at the school where I teach, and science fair is going to be the DEATH OF ME.) I end up just collapsing on the couch and mindlessly browsing Pinterest instead of picking up my Kindle to read.
Anyway, excuses and excuses. Like Kendra, I often read more plot-driven stories– I like to have a mystery to figure out or surprising twists that smack me upside the head. So needless to say, I’ve struggled a bit with the pacing of this story. I am an appreciator of clever dialogue, however, and I have enjoyed that aspect.
So I guess I feel like it’s been an okay book overall, but it doesn’t call to me from my Kindle and keep me up until all hours reading, which is, in my mind, the sign of a really great book. But it’s probably unfair of me to pass judgement before I’ve finished it. I just wanted to contribute *something* to the discussion even though I’m a delinquent idea contributor/reader.
I do think it would make a good movie– there’s so much potential for dazzling visuals that might help give the story some of the sparkle it lacks (in my opinion).
I just finished the book and I did find it was really over-written, it made me think of Dawson’s Creek (so it’s funny someone mentioned Michelle Williams) which always drove me nuts because NO ONE talks like that, especially all the time, with the witty remarks, and quick rejoinders, and encyclopedic knowledge of and constant casual references to literature, music, and art. Drove me bananas and prevented me from seeing the characters as anything more than shiny veneer with no real substance or purpose. I felt like the author was always showing off. That all being said, I did enjoy the setting of 30’s-40’s New York. I have always wanted to time travel back to that era!
Thanks again for hosting this Jules, I am happy to be exposed to books I would otherwise miss. I am looking forward to the next one!
A few days late to the discussion. I read it at the beginning of February, so reading the comments here have been great. Ditto on the one-liners/zingers. I loved few of them, but every character having their chance to make one as a parting line, just made me roll my eyes. Totally agree the language was so poetic. I wish I’d copied down a few of my favorite lines before returning it to the library.
Great Gatsby was on my school reading list too and I remember loathing it at the time. It was so completely unrelatable to me (even though some books are great for that very reason). Dont know what I’d think of GG if I read it now, but since “Rules” time period and cover jacket of course made me think of GG, I tried to push it out of my mind so I’d give this book a fair shot.
Ended up giving it a 4 on my good reads list. The book was a pleasant read and beautifully written. Katey was realistic enough for me and I so appreciated some of her decisions and restraint (really telling Eve what she thought) and then total lack of restraint (walking out of her job and going after something she wanted)… I just had fun with her.
A book I wouldn’t ordinarily pick up– which is one of the things I enjoy about book clubs.
Thanks for hosting Jules!
Thanks so much Jules for organizing this online book group – such fun! This book was not something I would have been drawn to and read, but gosh I really enjoyed it! Great writing, succinct and I thought beautiful (about Mason Tate’s sexuality: ‘he made it clear that his affinities lay in another hemisphere…’ – clever writing). The story totally floated my boat, light and interesting enough – I enjoyed it very much and have loved reading everyone’s comments and fleshing out my interpretation. I do not feel that I am ‘very well read’ and look forward to expanding my reading horizons in the months to come…Many thanks!
loved reading this book, but probably very forgettable. the writing from a womens point of view by a man was quite good. my fave part was the charcter of new york. my fave city, described to a tee.
I am only two months late, but I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading the “Rules of Civility” discussion you hosted. Although the cover of the book grabbed my attention since I saw it in a bookstore a few months ago, for some reason I didn’t buy it and then I regretted my decision when I saw it mentioned on your blog. But I still didn’t have time to read it until last week, and I just finished it last night. And then I spend two hours this morning reading all the comments here.
I enjoyed the book very much, but I certainly missed some of the nuances that other readers have pointed out. It’s great to have discussions like this!
I will start reading The Night Circus tonight and to get ready for this month’s discussion.
For future dicussions- have you read or considered reading The Art of Fielding by Chad Harbach? I read the story of how the book was born in Vanity Fair and it seemed quite intriguing (a debut novel that took ten years to publish and sold for a record amount), but it revolves around baseball and I have no idea what baseball is about. I guess I’m looking for an incentive to read the book…
After finishing this book I kept being bothered by some plot elements and I took to the Web to see if anyone else had some answers. I happened upon this wonderful discussion. I’m a year late, but can anyone give me some reason why Anne did not cut off Tinker during his relationship with Eve? It was her money, not Tinker’s, being given to Eve in the form of jewelry, vacations, clothes, etc. Anne might understand that Tinker felt sorry for Eve during convalescense and she may have even encouraged Tinker to set up the arrangement, but why wouldn’t Anne have cut him off once there was an indication that Tinker wanted to keep Eve around for the long haul? Was Anne attracted to Eve, too? A wife surely would inconvenience Anne since Anne would not then be able to snap her fingers and demand Tinker’s services whenever Anne wanted. I don’t believe for a second that Anne was immune to the devastation wrought by the green-eyed monster of jealousy. Why, oh why, didn’t she cut Tinker loose to remind him that she was the puppet master? If anyone has any thoughts, please share!
Fun read tho I agree it was a bit overwritten. In the movie version I’d cast Emma Stone as Katey and Robin Wright as Anne Grandyn. The characters’ names were Dickensian.
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I’m not sure if this has been discussed yet, but how was Tinker able to take Eve on an extensive European holiday on Ann’s money? Ann had to know that he was traveling with Eve so why would she allow it? Thoughts?